Transcript
Chapter 1: Introduction of guests
0:00
0 seconds
He's so much afraid [music] of Ukrainians speaking about peace that he went in direct confrontation trying
0:09
9 seconds
to [music] ban our event. Actually, truth is the first victim [music] and propaganda rules on all sides and nobody
0:18
18 seconds
has the monopoly of truth said I need girls propaganda if you want. I need thousands talking heads. I
0:26
26 seconds
need people talking positive things about me. We were [music] out shocked.
0:30
30 seconds
Ukraine today is a chaos where people try to survive [music] from Russian missiles and drones and from Zilinski's
0:37
37 seconds
autocracy. Ukrainian people are fighting Russia and Zilinski's [music] autocracy.
0:43
43 seconds
How long can we endure? If people make conclusions before they see the facts, this means they don't care [music] about the facts.
0:57
57 seconds
[music]
0:58
58 seconds
Hello. Today is Thursday, 17th of September.
1:05
1 minute, 5 seconds
It's the first plenary session in the European Parliament after the summer break.
1:12
1 minute, 12 seconds
And I find myself in a hotel in the center of Strasburg. Instead of the Parliament,
1:20
1 minute, 20 seconds
I find myself here with two distinguished guests. To my left, I welcome Julia Mendel.
1:29
1 minute, 29 seconds
Julia Mendel, former press secretary of Ukrainian President Zilinski.
1:37
1 minute, 37 seconds
And today, the voice of a new Ukraine, a Ukraine
1:45
1 minute, 45 seconds
searching for peace, searching to establish diplomacy
1:51
1 minute, 51 seconds
instead of escalation as a new strategy regarding the war.
1:57
1 minute, 57 seconds
To my right, I welcome.
2:02
2 minutes, 2 seconds
You call yourself or what's couple whatever you like
2:07
2 minutes, 7 seconds
couple outstanding journalist and the editor-inchief of the journal
2:15
2 minutes, 15 seconds
Vul Ro is considered to be the most independent journalist in Germanspeaking
2:25
2 minutes, 25 seconds
media landscape and uh I'm happy to have the two of you here to speak about the situation in
2:34
2 minutes, 34 seconds
Ukraine regarding the war and perspectives how to find a solution to
2:41
2 minutes, 41 seconds
the tragedy which is taking place in your country. Thank you.
Chapter 2: Denied parliamentary access
2:47
2 minutes, 47 seconds
We were actually supposed to hold this meeting in the parliament.
2:51
2 minutes, 51 seconds
We had booked the studio and yesterday when Julia Mendel was supposed to
2:59
2 minutes, 59 seconds
deliver a speech in the meeting hall of my political
3:05
3 minutes, 5 seconds
group. She was denied access to the parliament.
3:12
3 minutes, 12 seconds
For me, this was the first time such a thing happened. I've never heard that at the parliament a person was denied access for obvious political reasons.
3:22
3 minutes, 22 seconds
Have you had any such situation before?
3:25
3 minutes, 25 seconds
Absolutely not. But just days before the speech when we had already announcement out, President Zalinski himself signed
3:34
3 minutes, 34 seconds
sanctions against me and I guess there is a direct connection between those sanctions and u cancellation like of of my entrance to the European Parliament.
3:46
3 minutes, 46 seconds
Uh because from what I understand what was written in Ukrainian media is that Zalinski personally asked uh Mrs.
3:55
3 minutes, 55 seconds
Fonderline and Mrs. Metsah to ban uh uh my speech to cancel it. He's so much
4:02
4 minutes, 2 seconds
afraid of Ukrainians speaking about peace that he went in direct confrontation trying to ban um ban our
4:12
4 minutes, 12 seconds
event. actually indeed it was uh the president of the European Parliament herself, Roberto
4:19
4 minutes, 19 seconds
[snorts] Metsa who took the decision to deny access to you
4:26
4 minutes, 26 seconds
and uh her head of cabinet he came to my office in the afternoon to explain me the reasons
4:34
4 minutes, 34 seconds
why this decision was taken. Uh he said that um Metsa received information
4:43
4 minutes, 43 seconds
that at the event of my political party in the parliament at which you were supposed to speak, a person would show
4:52
4 minutes, 52 seconds
up who will spread Russian propaganda and disinformation which is forbidden in the parliament.
5:03
5 minutes, 3 seconds
So I asked him uh where did that information come from?
5:08
5 minutes, 8 seconds
Maybe uh the president metah herself had received misinformation regarding that person. So um he was not really able or
5:17
5 minutes, 17 seconds
willing to disclose the sources. So they did it in a very clever way that um you
5:24
5 minutes, 24 seconds
were denied access um on grounds exclusively you know related to the parliament
5:33
5 minutes, 33 seconds
but it's obvious for us that there must be a connection between the sanctions put on you on Sunday and the denial of
5:41
5 minutes, 41 seconds
access to the parliament on Wednesday or oppel um what what's what's the logic
5:48
5 minutes, 48 seconds
behind this? How do professional media makers work to hide
5:57
5 minutes, 57 seconds
the true mechanisms behind such mechanisms which lead to the result that we had yesterday in the parliament.
6:06
6 minutes, 6 seconds
Nothing new under the sun. I mean when a society is in war or believes itself to
6:14
6 minutes, 14 seconds
be in war or if some politicians think that they are in a war as we well know
6:21
6 minutes, 21 seconds
truth is the first victim and propaganda rules on all sides and nobody has the
6:29
6 minutes, 29 seconds
monopoly of truth. Therefore, it would be in a democratic society totally
6:35
6 minutes, 35 seconds
normal that you listen to all the sides, you listen to all the relevant and interesting voices such as the voice of Julia Mendel. Of course, absolutely so.
6:47
6 minutes, 47 seconds
But you see by this pathetic decision that you know even a institution like
6:53
6 minutes, 53 seconds
the European Parliament is not uh upholding some basic values which would be supremely important in the situation
7:01
7 minutes, 1 second
we're in because we we're dealing with with huge uh decisions. You know what is the the true what is your attitude towards this war? What's the right path
7:09
7 minutes, 9 seconds
to follow? So you need to to listen to a lot of people. But these guys who decide something like that who say you cannot
7:17
7 minutes, 17 seconds
enter parliament she's not allowed to speak um these guys are so deeply already in the propaganda war that they
7:26
7 minutes, 26 seconds
start to believe that they are like the the the the holy grail of truth which is not true. I
7:34
7 minutes, 34 seconds
mean of course it's totally undemocratic what happened. The good thing is [clears throat] however it cannot be stopped. I mean it was an
7:42
7 minutes, 42 seconds
embarrassment. They tried to derail it but they didn't succeed. I mean you with
7:48
7 minutes, 48 seconds
your persistence professor Nov you managed to circumvent these
7:55
7 minutes, 55 seconds
attempts. The the speech took place. It was a video transmitted real life Zoom speech. The questions were there so it
8:04
8 minutes, 4 seconds
could not be banned. Personally I thought it is it is actually a sign of the miserable state of the
8:13
8 minutes, 13 seconds
European Union. I mean if you have to use methods like this you try to block someone to speak who is a relevant voice
8:22
8 minutes, 22 seconds
and you also try to forbid the simultaneous translation. So you all the translators are not allowed to work. I
8:31
8 minutes, 31 seconds
mean imagine on what kind of low level um our so-called oropees mind you know
8:39
8 minutes, 39 seconds
the the community of values I mean what pathetic values are those but they didn't succeed they didn't succeed and this is the silver lining the day after
8:48
8 minutes, 48 seconds
if I may add uh they also there are just facts for the audience here we tried to talk to them they denied even the talk
8:56
8 minutes, 56 seconds
they didn't want to see me well if they wanted to see if This is Russian propaganda. They could see the speech before, right? They didn't want to read
9:05
9 minutes, 5 seconds
it. It's a very superficial and very insulting decision. And for your audience to know, we even didn't know to
9:13
9 minutes, 13 seconds
the very end if the video transmission will be working. We recorded the speech.
9:18
9 minutes, 18 seconds
So, I'm very grateful that you found so many ways to make it happen. And uh the questions actually were even more critical than my answers. But um that's
9:27
9 minutes, 27 seconds
uh really very insulting and embarrassing.
9:31
9 minutes, 31 seconds
Yeah. Yeah. I apologize for that. Um and uh surely um there will be consequences uh uh to this and maybe we can address
9:40
9 minutes, 40 seconds
one of the consequences later on when we come to your uh next um interview with Tucker Carlson uh next week. But first
Chapter 3: Manufacturing Zelensky's image
9:47
9 minutes, 47 seconds
of all, let me take up your um um your saying that truth is the first victim of war. Um, if I remember properly, Julia,
9:57
9 minutes, 57 seconds
um, in your interview with Tucker Carlson, you said you related that, um, also
10:06
10 minutes, 6 seconds
regarding the image of a lot Silinski, [clears throat] some sort of manufacturing Zanski took place, creating a certain image of Silinski.
10:16
10 minutes, 16 seconds
Actually, you were part of that. And um uh in that context you quote Silinski
10:24
10 minutes, 24 seconds
um as follows. I need Gerbles propaganda. I need thousands of talking heads of Gerbles propaganda. Um can you
10:32
10 minutes, 32 seconds
describe a bit more in detail how this whole system was set up by Zalinski to
10:39
10 minutes, 39 seconds
make him that hero that myth which is today present in the heads of so many millions of Europeans and which according to you is a myth.
10:52
10 minutes, 52 seconds
Well, uh, you're right that I was the part of that propaganda and, um, that's why I'm talking because I cannot forgive
10:59
10 minutes, 59 seconds
myself perhaps. So, I'm trying to spread what I know right now because, um, this lies costs the future for my country. It
11:08
11 minutes, 8 seconds
costs my nation. Um, Zalinski was um, gathering his communications team in 2019.
11:16
11 minutes, 16 seconds
He was very uh, pissed off. He was very angry about critical comments uh on the social media. Uh he had already a person
11:26
11 minutes, 26 seconds
who was responsible for border farms those people who were writing good comments. We also had special people who
11:33
11 minutes, 33 seconds
were deleting negative comments so that he is not becoming angry. Later on in
11:40
11 minutes, 40 seconds
2020, Mr. Yermach uh bought even more bots. There was another person delivering bots. So this is how uh they were trying to create a positive image.
11:50
11 minutes, 50 seconds
I myself personally never was involved and we were standing against this practice because B is the system when
11:58
11 minutes, 58 seconds
you also get u self you lie to yourself right you think that someone supports your decisions but
12:06
12 minutes, 6 seconds
in fact these are just bots. So when Zalinski was gathering us, he was so angry that he was trying to convince us
12:15
12 minutes, 15 seconds
that he that he needed a lot of positive information about his policies. And one of my colleagues was saying we just
12:23
12 minutes, 23 seconds
don't have the good results. We are happy to make the stories, but they just not there. And one of the stories was
12:30
12 minutes, 30 seconds
that he was promising apartments for displaced people, but he is a PR guy. He just promises and they need to appear as
12:38
12 minutes, 38 seconds
a miracle. He never gives orders. No one is responsible. No, like it just appears somewhere. So everyone thinks that
12:46
12 minutes, 46 seconds
someone else is doing this. And so time was passing and we had more and more people who were promised apartments and nobody was getting those apartments.
12:55
12 minutes, 55 seconds
There were displaced people and people who used to be prisoners of war in Russia and were returned to Ukraine. So
13:02
13 minutes, 2 seconds
we had a person in communications team trying to find those apartments which is ridiculous and the woman said look we
13:11
13 minutes, 11 seconds
need the results actually at least help us like give the order to the government you know and we will produce the stories we cannot produce the stories that are
13:20
13 minutes, 20 seconds
not there because there will be people saying that the apartments are not there they have nowhere to live and so he
13:28
13 minutes, 28 seconds
tried to say that it doesn't matter what actually happens uh because what matters is what people say, what experts say,
13:37
13 minutes, 37 seconds
what boards say, you know, what information is spread online.
13:43
13 minutes, 43 seconds
And when my colleague was insisting that the reality need to correspond to what I said, he became very angry. He leaned to
13:52
13 minutes, 52 seconds
the table like he's always doing his angry and he said, I need gobles propaganda if you want. I need thousands
13:59
13 minutes, 59 seconds
talking heads. I need people talking positive things about me. We were out shocked. Uh we went silent first and
14:08
14 minutes, 8 seconds
when we went out of the office like nobody knew how to respond because for us it was also shocking to hear gobble's
14:16
14 minutes, 16 seconds
propaganda thing you know uh he repeated it uh several times more. we had such gatherings. Um there were people from
14:25
14 minutes, 25 seconds
his humor show Martal 95 uh who tried even to count how much it would cost to
14:32
14 minutes, 32 seconds
get this global propaganda. Um however you know I didn't have much time to think about that because we had so much
14:40
14 minutes, 40 seconds
work and I was trying just you know to make it work what was happening and uh as I understand Mr. year mark was um he he decided to be responsible for this.
14:52
14 minutes, 52 seconds
So when uh the large scale invasion went on uh actually it worked for him on another level because um as far as I
15:01
15 minutes, 1 second
understand there are loin and PR companies that are hired in uh Washington DC uh in uh uh London and
15:10
15 minutes, 10 seconds
perhaps in Brussels but um they are helping create the image. They are helping to manufacture the story itself.
15:19
15 minutes, 19 seconds
And I just want to pay your attention that Wimmer Zalinski became known in the first days of large-scale invasion for
15:26
15 minutes, 26 seconds
supposedly he's saying I need ammunition not a right but he never said it. It was an American diplomat who leaked the
15:35
15 minutes, 35 seconds
information to the CNN. So we never know if he was that super brave in real real life.
15:43
15 minutes, 43 seconds
So my point is um you know when when this war broke as many Ukrainians as majority of Ukrainians I was grateful
15:51
15 minutes, 51 seconds
that he stayed in the country and I was trying I was trying to be helpful. There was unity. We knew that we stood against
15:58
15 minutes, 58 seconds
the external aggression and I was helping a lot. I was helping for you know not for pain just because I
16:05
16 minutes, 5 seconds
knew I stood for my country. And I believe that for Ludimmer Zalinski he abused our unity. He abused our belief
16:13
16 minutes, 13 seconds
in Ukraine and he abused the trust in the state because Ukraine today is a chaos where people try to survive from
16:21
16 minutes, 21 seconds
Russian missiles and drones and from Zilinsk's autocracy.
16:26
16 minutes, 26 seconds
So if we talk about betrayal, I accuse him of being a traitor of Ukraine. He
16:33
16 minutes, 33 seconds
did exactly opposite of what he promised and he elevated his own personal benefit above the nation's interest.
16:44
16 minutes, 44 seconds
Could it be said that uh there was a desire among the Ukrainian people that the person like Silinski shows up and will lead the country into a new future.
16:57
16 minutes, 57 seconds
In 2019 there was a lot of hope. What I never said that Zilinski is he's selling
17:05
17 minutes, 5 seconds
hope all the time. He's really doing the selling hope. He was saying I will kneel
17:13
17 minutes, 13 seconds
I will get in my knees in front of Putin just that Putin doesn't put Ukraine into its knees. He was saying that nothing
17:21
17 minutes, 21 seconds
mattered more than human lives. He was saying important things that people wanted to hear. And he not only promised
17:29
17 minutes, 29 seconds
to finish this war. But he also said that if he doesn't finish it, he will give the position to a person who would
17:37
17 minutes, 37 seconds
be able to finish this war. Everything is forgotten. Everything is forgotten.
17:42
17 minutes, 42 seconds
So nothing has changed for the Ukrainian people because they want peace. They want someone who would be able to
17:50
17 minutes, 50 seconds
establish normalize relations and restore the country. But Zalinski, Zilinski's messaging, Zalinski's
17:58
17 minutes, 58 seconds
ideology, what he is doing has changed drastically.
18:04
18 minutes, 4 seconds
Was did Zilinski succeed to sell hope in the European countries? And um if so
18:14
18 minutes, 14 seconds
what were people actually looking for which is the main dimension for which we are looking out for a hero
18:23
18 minutes, 23 seconds
to arrange things to our happiness.
Chapter 4: Media and political narratives
18:28
18 minutes, 28 seconds
Well I mean I I look at it from a very practical side. in the um February of
18:37
18 minutes, 37 seconds
2022 and I was in Switzerland or actually at that time I was in Germany actually on
18:45
18 minutes, 45 seconds
this on the very day I was actually in a German television uh talk show exactly when when the Russians invaded um
18:53
18 minutes, 53 seconds
Ukraine and it was clear I mean all of a sudden it was like a outburst of emotion in Europe the western part you saw these
19:01
19 minutes, 1 second
images of course Putin He's not considered, you know, a light a figure of light in the in the in the wider
19:10
19 minutes, 10 seconds
audience of Europe. The skepticism of Putin is your Russia and he's an autocrat, etc. But then on that day, all
19:17
19 minutes, 17 seconds
these perceptions they somehow exploded into this um yeah a chain reaction of of
19:25
19 minutes, 25 seconds
of of emotional uh outbursts and and and the people were
19:33
19 minutes, 33 seconds
were truly engaged and they were um they they uh they thought it was a huge scandal what Russia is doing and this
19:41
19 minutes, 41 seconds
emotion of course was very strong and and I can totally accept and I can totally understand why when people you
19:48
19 minutes, 48 seconds
see a smaller country is attacked by a bigger one nobody asks what are the reasons what are the deeper reasons it's your emotion you have no power you feel
19:57
19 minutes, 57 seconds
oh what can we do we should help and this emotional reaction you put the bad
20:03
20 minutes, 3 seconds
guy in in waits and the poor the the the attacked they are the Robin Hoods and
20:10
20 minutes, 10 seconds
they are the the the resistance and of course the leader he's the shining hero the shining knight I mean these were
20:18
20 minutes, 18 seconds
like from the first day these were the perceptions and then an interesting thing happened I waited to the moment
20:27
20 minutes, 27 seconds
till rationality would take over and especially in the political
20:33
20 minutes, 33 seconds
field with the parties, with the leaders that someone should come and say, well, we have the catastrophe of an invasion.
20:42
20 minutes, 42 seconds
We do not accept it. Of course, it's clear Russia is the aggressor. They went in, even though they might have their
20:49
20 minutes, 49 seconds
reasons why they did it, etc. It's unacceptable. We cannot accept it. But now, what do we do as European
20:57
20 minutes, 57 seconds
countries? What is our position to that war? Um, shouldn't we try to make this war smaller? Shouldn't we try to do
21:06
21 minutes, 6 seconds
everything to engage in diplomacy as we did during the Cold War when when the hits the fan? And this never
21:14
21 minutes, 14 seconds
happened. And this first emotional reaction just prevailed. There was no discussion. There was no, you know,
21:22
21 minutes, 22 seconds
calculation of the consequences of our policy. Everybody who had another view who said, "Well, we should probably negotiate." He would, he was willified.
21:30
21 minutes, 30 seconds
And of course in the interest of Wadmir Silinski, I mean he's he's a smart man.
21:35
21 minutes, 35 seconds
I mean he's not stupid. He knows the Ukraine is too small to win such a war.
21:41
21 minutes, 41 seconds
He cannot accept as a president to lose territory. No president can accept losing territory. It's impossible. So he
21:48
21 minutes, 48 seconds
wants to do everything to defend his position. So it his interest is it is uh to present himself as this hero that the
21:58
21 minutes, 58 seconds
others make him also with their uh with their perceptions and then he tries to get everything he needs to to to to
22:07
22 minutes, 7 seconds
fight this war and um and then of course propaganda kicks in. But what never happened I mean this is all explainable
22:15
22 minutes, 15 seconds
but the interesting phenomenon is that till today I mean there is just one marching column in the media in politics in the European
22:24
22 minutes, 24 seconds
mainstream that nobody questions nobody gets on the rational level of a discussion like you presented at your speech you know what are the con
22:32
22 minutes, 32 seconds
consequences um Ukraine is on the verge of extinction we're losing so many people um you get
22:39
22 minutes, 39 seconds
to the point like in the Vietnam war where this famous um American captain said in Houer at this battle of Houer
22:46
22 minutes, 46 seconds
1968, we have to destroy this city in order to save it. I mean the the the world might go down in flames, but we
22:55
22 minutes, 55 seconds
will save it. So this that's for me the problem. I don't see it and and the propaganda mechanisms. I would for the
23:03
23 minutes, 3 seconds
last remark I would just say I'm I'm disappointed especially as a media guy of the reaction for the media that they
23:11
23 minutes, 11 seconds
play this game. You know there is one shining hero on one villain. I mean it's like a Hollywood movie but it doesn't correspond to the reality. is more
23:20
23 minutes, 20 seconds
complex and it's utterly irrational because at the moment we are at the point where we really have to say the
23:26
23 minutes, 26 seconds
danger of a huge escalation even of a war on German soil again between Europe
23:35
23 minutes, 35 seconds
and Russia. I mean it's there. I mean we are as close as never before since 1945.
23:42
23 minutes, 42 seconds
And what does it need? I mean, does it need some rockets in Berlin or in Munich that the people start to realize uh what
23:50
23 minutes, 50 seconds
the risks are? So, that's a bit the the situation how I look at it. Emotion emotion beats rationality and the media
24:00
24 minutes
um totally fail in questioning these narratives you have so eloquently presented.
24:06
24 minutes, 6 seconds
There's a totally global media crisis and I think this is the consequence of this media crisis. There are some things
24:14
24 minutes, 14 seconds
that I get from some journalists where I see that there is no any standards anymore. I had a journalist from the
24:22
24 minutes, 22 seconds
build German media who knew me and who is spreading just propaganda now and he even started earning on drones working
24:30
24 minutes, 30 seconds
with drones. Amazing. And after our speech he sent me a message. He recorded an audio and the first seconds he said
24:39
24 minutes, 39 seconds
how stupid I was doing this thing like I mean it's a journalist right what are you doing like you didn't read my speech
24:48
24 minutes, 48 seconds
he didn't see he just said that that was a stupid thing and if I may just for your audience uh just today I got a very
24:57
24 minutes, 57 seconds
interesting story from New York that our diplomats cannot find Ukrainians to make a group of support for Zalinski
25:05
25 minutes, 5 seconds
Everybody denies. Nobody wants to see him. Nobody supports him. If Ukrainians do not support him, why do you?
25:14
25 minutes, 14 seconds
Let me add one one thing. Just one just one very quick thing. You said just the the the thing about propaganda
25:22
25 minutes, 22 seconds
what you touched upon at the beginning, Russian propag. She's not allowed to spread Russian propaganda. I mean,
25:30
25 minutes, 30 seconds
again, in a war situation, every side brings propaganda. Nobody is sure where the absolute truth is. And even if there
25:39
25 minutes, 39 seconds
is a propagandist from Russia, let him speak. I mean we connected to Russia.
25:45
25 minutes, 45 seconds
No, I don't say that you are that. I just say in a general mode. I mean in the the during the cold war, you could read the prafta in Europe. It was not
25:53
25 minutes, 53 seconds
forbidden. It was not banned. They were even invited Russian talking heads from the Soviet Union and you listen to them and you you you made your own opinion.
26:03
26 minutes, 3 seconds
But this like this this bogeyman of Russian propaganda. I see a lot of Ukrainian propaganda of EU propaganda if
26:10
26 minutes, 10 seconds
I look in the European newspapers. So I think I'm surrounded by propaganda on all sides. So I have to to let everybody
26:18
26 minutes, 18 seconds
[clears throat] speak and propaganda is just a war a kind of a war word you you're bringing propaganda. That means I got the truth you don't have the truth.
26:28
26 minutes, 28 seconds
We shouldn't go into this kind of that's a stupidity to to to use these words. I mean there are different narratives.
26:36
26 minutes, 36 seconds
Some are more closer to the facts. Some are a bit more separate from the facts.
26:41
26 minutes, 41 seconds
Let's hear them all and make our own opinion.
26:44
26 minutes, 44 seconds
Oh, that's that's true. I I would like to come back to that after a short while. But first of all, I would like to come back to uh your quote, we have to
26:53
26 minutes, 53 seconds
destroy this city to save it. which strongly reminds me of the logic that I see at play in Ukraine. Presently, we
27:02
27 minutes, 2 seconds
have to sacrifice Ukrainian people to save them. Um, to the best of my knowledge, this upsets you very much,
27:10
27 minutes, 10 seconds
Julia. Can you explain a bit more what you see at play presently in your country and in Europe also supporting
27:19
27 minutes, 19 seconds
the continuation of this war um destroying your own people? Uh just recently I've got a note from one very
Chapter 5: Human cost of the conflict
27:27
27 minutes, 27 seconds
famous editor who told me that just before the war they were meeting one top European official and um this official
27:37
27 minutes, 37 seconds
said that their aim was to have the war as long as it is possible to bleed out Russia and the editor personally thought
27:46
27 minutes, 46 seconds
that that was indepable for the Ukrainian people. So what I see today is that in the west there are so many
27:53
27 minutes, 53 seconds
people who think that this war is just a Hollywood movie that they cannot put themselves in the shoes of Ukrainians,
28:01
28 minutes, 1 second
but they want Russia to burn more than they want to save Ukraine. Ukraine is in a terrible estate today. We almost have
28:10
28 minutes, 10 seconds
no economy. Our debt is rising all the time. It's now over 110% of GDP. We got
28:17
28 minutes, 17 seconds
more loans. We almost do not produce any added value. People do not have economic opportunities inside the country except
28:25
28 minutes, 25 seconds
of going to drone production. You cannot make the whole population making drones.
28:31
28 minutes, 31 seconds
But also we have energy infrastructure destroyed. The winter is coming. There is no light. There will be no light.
28:38
28 minutes, 38 seconds
There will be no heating. The government cannot help at all what the government says in the frontline regions today.
28:46
28 minutes, 46 seconds
Leave. If people there live for $100 per month, how can they live? Where will they live? They have some hut in the
28:55
28 minutes, 55 seconds
village of let's say Herson region and they can survive there with their garden. How can they come let's say to a
29:01
29 minutes, 1 second
big city where they will not just have any means to leave? Then we have a lot of deaths around. The stories are just
29:10
29 minutes, 10 seconds
terrifying. I just cannot stop telling them. We have so many families erased, so many children who suffer, who are
29:17
29 minutes, 17 seconds
dying. Um, I was mentioning one of the stories terrible. A woman in the northern region of Sumo, her house was
29:26
29 minutes, 26 seconds
shelled by Russia and she pulled out her husband and she did not manage to pull out her daughters of seven and 10 years
29:33
29 minutes, 33 seconds
old. And there are multiple of such stories.
29:38
29 minutes, 38 seconds
And the reaction for these stories is just don't speak about them, conceal them, and cheer up for hitting Russia.
29:45
29 minutes, 45 seconds
It's not fair. I mean, if Ukraine stopped the war, restored, we would be strong shield for Europe, we could have
29:54
29 minutes, 54 seconds
normal army operating, we could have no economy and democracy operating. We could be reformed and we could be
30:02
30 minutes, 2 seconds
strong. Right now, this is the destruction of Ukraine. And if Ukraine falls, your guys next. This is the
30:10
30 minutes, 10 seconds
reality that is being hidden because all the facts, all the numbers show that Ukraine is failing. You should expect
30:18
30 minutes, 18 seconds
more refugees. And let me just say Ukraine lost over half of its population in 35 years of independence. And most of
30:27
30 minutes, 27 seconds
people we lost was after 2022. Right now we have little more than 20 million of people in the country and 12 million of
30:36
30 minutes, 36 seconds
them are pensioners and people with disabilities. So over half we almost know half people of working age. We have
30:44
30 minutes, 44 seconds
men who don't go out of their house for years years because they are hunted on the streets and they forced to go to the
30:53
30 minutes, 53 seconds
front line or pay all their savings as bribes to survive.
30:58
30 minutes, 58 seconds
Ukrainian people are fighting Russia and Zilinski's autocracy. How long can we endure? And why do you think that this
31:06
31 minutes, 6 seconds
inhumanity is normal? It couldn't be normalized. It couldn't. It shouldn't be normalized. We all are humans. And my
31:14
31 minutes, 14 seconds
call is remember that. Imagine yourself on this place. You would never agree for this. Never. Never. Why do why are we doing this?
31:25
31 minutes, 25 seconds
Julian, in your speech yesterday, you said that NATO membership of Ukraine was intended to protect the [clears throat]
31:32
31 minutes, 32 seconds
Ukrainian people, the people.
31:34
31 minutes, 34 seconds
And now we are sacrificing the Ukrainian people. Yeah.
31:39
31 minutes, 39 seconds
To reach that membership. Isn't that an absurdity?
31:44
31 minutes, 44 seconds
I think it's uh it shows that the NATO idea died in my country. Not for my country, just dead. like it was really
31:52
31 minutes, 52 seconds
created as an umbrella for protection and security. So how can we be dying for
31:57
31 minutes, 57 seconds
a potential idea maybe sometimes in 10 20 or 50 years to join this uh uh union?
32:06
32 minutes, 6 seconds
I mean it doesn't make any sense.
32:09
32 minutes, 9 seconds
Until 2014 Ukraine was a neutral country.
32:14
32 minutes, 14 seconds
You are a citizen of a neutral state since more than 200. No, almost 200.
32:22
32 minutes, 22 seconds
More than two although officially you could say in the sense of international law since 1815 which is like more than 200 years but it I mean the tradition of
32:32
32 minutes, 32 seconds
Swiss neutrality goes actually back to 1515 after the battle of Marino. So we we're talking about the very ancient thing here.
32:40
32 minutes, 40 seconds
Yeah. But but uh uh Lasis fared quite well with neutrality. Um wouldn't it be
32:48
32 minutes, 48 seconds
a model also for Ukraine to become uh the Swiss of Eastern Europe, a bridge
32:58
32 minutes, 58 seconds
between the Western and Central European states and Russia on the other side?
33:04
33 minutes, 4 seconds
Couldn't be a bridge across the neper be the very symbol um of that you know
33:11
33 minutes, 11 seconds
balance between the two huge regions um that could be worked for
33:20
33 minutes, 20 seconds
um you think it's would be a reasonable idea uh to call for a new Vienna Congress to
33:30
33 minutes, 30 seconds
develop that idea Absolutely. And the tragedy is that um
Chapter 6: Paths to peace and neutrality
33:36
33 minutes, 36 seconds
this idea that you expressed was also pointed out and explained back in 2014
33:47
33 minutes, 47 seconds
al after the whole Crimea crisis by no less than Henry Kissinger. He wrote in the I think in the Financial Times a
33:55
33 minutes, 55 seconds
comment on that. He said he the Ukraine should be a federal state with um a lot of regional independence for the
34:04
34 minutes, 4 seconds
different regions because they have been shaped by a very difficult history in the 20th
34:11
34 minutes, 11 seconds
century. So we have a lot of different mentalities, political inclinations and loyalties. How do you cope with that?
34:18
34 minutes, 18 seconds
Switzerland could be a role model for that. We have also a mix of of different tribes, different religious religions,
34:26
34 minutes, 26 seconds
different languages. Kissinger spelled it out and and he also argued for neutrality. And I think we can even go
34:34
34 minutes, 34 seconds
further in 2022. I can remember that Ukrainian president Sinski himself on on
34:41
34 minutes, 41 seconds
X or on Twitter. I wasn't probably it was already ex at the time he he presented the idea that he would be open
34:49
34 minutes, 49 seconds
to the idea thought it would be a good idea for a neutral Ukraine. And when you're talking about the bridge between
34:56
34 minutes, 56 seconds
you could say Eastern Europe and Western Europe, I consider Russia of course a European country. The Ukraine is a
35:03
35 minutes, 3 seconds
European country of course. um then uh some Western Europeans and some Americans should try uh to go into
35:12
35 minutes, 12 seconds
therapy um for their prejudice visa v Russia. Then when we talking about a Vienna Congress, that means that we have
35:21
35 minutes, 21 seconds
um a meeting of nations on the same level, which means I accept
35:28
35 minutes, 28 seconds
that there is a legitimate Russia, there is a legitimate Ukraine and all the participants. But we are not in this
35:36
35 minutes, 36 seconds
stage. We are we at the moment we are in this horror movie version of reality where we see in Moscow there is the
35:44
35 minutes, 44 seconds
devil, there is this new Chingis Khan, this new Hitler and of course everybody who dares to have the idea to negotiate
35:53
35 minutes, 53 seconds
with this devil with this monster. He's engaging in appeasement policy. So we are at the moment in the danger of taking the wrong lessons from history.
36:03
36 minutes, 3 seconds
And I think the the Vienna Congress is much a much more inspirational uh way and also closer to the situation at hand
36:13
36 minutes, 13 seconds
today than these parallels um to the last world war. And just a very short
36:19
36 minutes, 19 seconds
remark on that Kissinger wrote his one of a major book about the Vienna Congress. And he said um in such a
36:27
36 minutes, 27 seconds
congress you can deal with powers who don't want to rule the whole world like Napoleon or Hitler with these guys you
36:34
36 minutes, 34 seconds
have to deal differently. But I don't consider Russia as this threat to the universe. um
36:42
36 minutes, 42 seconds
we have to engage in such a Vienna style dialogue and and this would be my vision
36:50
36 minutes, 50 seconds
too. I mean it's we need each other and Ukraine has so much to offer. I mean it's crazy that we're letting this
36:57
36 minutes, 57 seconds
happen the destruction of your country on on the altar of some ideological madness.
37:04
37 minutes, 4 seconds
for your information and for the information of our audience um in the European Parliament indeed Putin is regularly addressed as a new Hitler.
37:15
37 minutes, 15 seconds
It's it's common to say that. Um but let's come back to the idea of neutrality. Um until 2014, Ukraine was a
Chapter 7: Critique of current strategies
37:24
37 minutes, 24 seconds
neutral state. Julia, do you see a readiness among Ukrainian people today
37:30
37 minutes, 30 seconds
to return to that status to put it into the constitution as it was at that time that uh Ukraine be a neutral state?
37:41
37 minutes, 41 seconds
Well, uh thank you for everything that both of you saying and I must um remind you that when Zalinski was elected in
37:48
37 minutes, 48 seconds
many ways he was promising people what Mr. Kppler is saying right now and um
37:56
37 minutes, 56 seconds
the thing is of the approach inside the country not many people know that just before the large scale invasion one of
38:03
38 minutes, 3 seconds
the most promising and successful reforms in the country was decentralization and European Union really was prizing us
38:13
38 minutes, 13 seconds
for this decentralization and Zalinski himself was standing for neutrality when he was elected with majority of 73 uh%.
38:24
38 minutes, 24 seconds
Uh so uh what is he doing now is establishing the vertical of power. Um
38:30
38 minutes, 30 seconds
no decentralization idea at all. And uh it's also the matter of how we see the country's diversity because yesterday I
38:39
38 minutes, 39 seconds
was given an interview to a person from Donbas. She speaks Russian. I spoke Ukrainian. It was wonderful interview.
38:46
38 minutes, 46 seconds
Everybody would understand each other.
38:49
38 minutes, 49 seconds
But Zalinski makes diversity a scene for the country. Though he is a Russian speaker, he really tries to pretend that
38:58
38 minutes, 58 seconds
Russian language is um an evil and you know I don't think that Russian language is somehow connected to Russia in in
39:07
39 minutes, 7 seconds
today's modern society because then we all don't need to speak English because sometimes you know there were also wars
39:14
39 minutes, 14 seconds
or we don't need to speak German. I'm sorry because we all know about what what was done in 20th century. I mean
39:23
39 minutes, 23 seconds
Russia cannot monopolize the language right? So with this thing also the politics of Zilinski is actually to
39:31
39 minutes, 31 seconds
exclude Ukraine from any dialogue and not to have its sovereignty and its bird on the table when our fate is being
39:40
39 minutes, 40 seconds
discussed. You are here discussing smart idea of neutrality that could bring Ukraine actually to peaceful solution.
39:48
39 minutes, 48 seconds
But Zalinski is excluding Ukraine. He's banning with his propaganda even thoughts about potential uh u uh answers
39:56
39 minutes, 56 seconds
for the peace. And so people are filled with heavy propaganda. But what I see is that there is the huge majority rising
40:06
40 minutes, 6 seconds
voices for finding solutions. There are people, ordinary people, people who started blogging, volunteers who say
40:14
40 minutes, 14 seconds
that we need the real realistic path to peace and neutrality is one of the features that should be there in this
40:22
40 minutes, 22 seconds
plan because if we cannot get into NATO, we shouldn't die for the very idea that it could or could not happen sometimes.
40:31
40 minutes, 31 seconds
So yes, I mean it depends the the thoughts of the people of course depend on on the propaganda but in my circle
40:39
40 minutes, 39 seconds
there are so many people journalists people in business who say well nobody wants to see us there what are we fighting for so I believe that
40:48
40 minutes, 48 seconds
Ukrainians would be ready for neutrality this wouldn't be a problem if it's not politicized heavily and if it's not presented as a threat.
40:58
40 minutes, 58 seconds
So let's let's promote that idea together. Let's call for a new Vienna Congress where all the relevant states
41:06
41 minutes, 6 seconds
are represented and find a path to that new status of your country. That would be really a great project. I'm quite
41:15
41 minutes, 15 seconds
willing to promote that and actually I did it in some of my speeches here in the parliament. Um, sounds great. Let's hold a new Vienna Congress, please.
41:23
41 minutes, 23 seconds
Well, neutrality. By the way, when there was the negotiation in Istanbul in 2022,
41:30
41 minutes, 30 seconds
our Swiss ambassador in Istanbul, Sha Daniel Rou, who is now writing for our newspaper, he was at the time
41:38
41 minutes, 38 seconds
ambassador, Swiss ambassador, and he was contacted by the um Turkish authorities.
41:44
41 minutes, 44 seconds
They were telling him that the Ukrainian side and the Russian side, they are very close to a compromise for peace in
41:52
41 minutes, 52 seconds
Ukraine. 22 and if there could be a help from the Swiss side in explaining what neutrality
42:01
42 minutes, 1 second
actually means in practical terms and just probably to give you a hint on that uh what you're talking about Swiss
42:08
42 minutes, 8 seconds
neutrality is very special it is um um you could say eternal that means um all
42:15
42 minutes, 15 seconds
pervading permanent permanent neutrality not just from case to case per permanent secondly and this is the most important
42:22
42 minutes, 22 seconds
thing for Ukraine. It's armed. Um armed that means that you can defend your own country with a very strong army. You
42:30
42 minutes, 30 seconds
need to pay a lot of money for your defense. You cannot be part of any kind of alliance. Forget NATO. Forget the
42:38
42 minutes, 38 seconds
European Union. You have to be really self-reliant in in terms which means that nobody could even think in his
42:46
42 minutes, 46 seconds
wildest dreams to attack you because your army is so strong and and Russia learns the lesson now because of the bravery of your people who who get
42:55
42 minutes, 55 seconds
killed there that they see they cannot just march through. And the third thing of neutrality is and this is today unfortunately not the case anymore in
43:02
43 minutes, 2 seconds
Switzerland. It also means don't participate in the economic warfare. no sanctions and don't engage in diplomatic
43:11
43 minutes, 11 seconds
warfare. So don't ban people from entering your country etc. So that's the concept of Swiss neutrality. It's very
43:19
43 minutes, 19 seconds
demanding because in a war situation everybody wants to have you on his side.
43:24
43 minutes, 24 seconds
So you need to have strong politicians a strong people who say no we don't take sides whether in peace no in peace we
43:32
43 minutes, 32 seconds
don't go into the holy alliance and in war we stay outside. And this is exactly the big failure in Europe because
43:40
43 minutes, 40 seconds
everybody says this is our war in Ukraine. And I think they're not fighting.
43:46
43 minutes, 46 seconds
But that's exactly the point. This is the utter cynicism. They say in Ukraine our values are defended. So I would say
43:53
43 minutes, 53 seconds
okay. So then put on your uniform, take your arm and die yourself. Don't let the Ukrainians die for your cynical um you
44:03
44 minutes, 3 seconds
know fantasies here. I think this is a a cynicism that is not at all addressed properly in our public sphere. It's
44:12
44 minutes, 12 seconds
actually it's a disgrace this kind of rhetoric we hear every day.
44:17
44 minutes, 17 seconds
You know, adding to this hypocrisy we have in uh the sanctions another package of sanctions. I was calling for
44:25
44 minutes, 25 seconds
these sanctions. I was standing for them but right now I see they don't work. And this is like 24th package of sanctions.
44:33
44 minutes, 33 seconds
And um I see again how PR is different from the reality. So yesterday I went to one of the websites and saw that the new
44:41
44 minutes, 41 seconds
package of sanctions when include over like 1,000 of names. And at the same time I know that there is the problem
44:48
44 minutes, 48 seconds
that the European Union cannot prolong the sanctions on one of the Putin's pockets, one of the Russian oligarchs.
44:55
44 minutes, 55 seconds
So it's really very hypocritical you know if they try just to present themselves heroes saying we have 24
45:02
45 minutes, 2 seconds
packages of sanctions but 24 packages means that they do not work right showing the number that we have over
45:10
45 minutes, 10 seconds
thousand of people to sanction but at the same time not sanction the major oligarch of Putin right so what I mean
45:17
45 minutes, 17 seconds
is this strategy is failing and it is not failing because of the Ukrainian soldiers and Ukrainian people who showed enormous resistance
45:24
45 minutes, 24 seconds
It's failing because there are people here who live just in their fantasies and who do not appreciate human life. So
45:32
45 minutes, 32 seconds
my call is we're all humans. Please let's remind remember remember about that. Let's remember because the nation is dead almost dead. You see and and I'm
45:40
45 minutes, 40 seconds
here to beg for these people. You don't know how much I I get support there. I really do. I cannot openly still speak
45:49
45 minutes, 49 seconds
about the ways but there is a normal support. At least there is someone talking about peace. People want peace
45:56
45 minutes, 56 seconds
and that's it. Thank you for saying all of this and for explaining about the neutrality. I think it will be very interesting for the people. It's very much underappreciated.
46:07
46 minutes, 7 seconds
You raise the question um why the Europeans don't go and fight. The answer from a realism theory of international
Chapter 8: Corruption in Ukraine
46:15
46 minutes, 15 seconds
relations would be areas of course strategic interests are
46:22
46 minutes, 22 seconds
areas where you're willing to go to fight and to die. So the fact that Europeans are not and Americans as well
46:30
46 minutes, 30 seconds
are not willing to set boots on the ground in Ukraine is a clear proof that
46:38
46 minutes, 38 seconds
it Ukraine is not really an area of core strategic interest for them. So this
46:45
46 minutes, 45 seconds
takes me to the hypothesis of a of a proxy war. Could it be that Ukraine is
46:52
46 minutes, 52 seconds
being used by other powers to lead a proxy war to take off a
47:00
47 minutes
strategic adversary that is Russia from the table? Is that idea in some way
47:07
47 minutes, 7 seconds
around in Ukraine to understand what's happening? Well, many people mentioned this because it looks more and more like that
47:16
47 minutes, 16 seconds
and um yesterday Usula Fonderline did her speech in the European Parliament and I think we all need to see the
47:24
47 minutes, 24 seconds
perspective here. She invited a girl, Ukrainian girl dancer who lost her leg because of Russian shelling um to
47:32
47 minutes, 32 seconds
support her speech as a PR. She used this girl for a PR and uh she used the PR the girl for PR
47:40
47 minutes, 40 seconds
and uh many Ukrainians they said why did she use it for promoting the war? She need if she invited this girl for PR,
47:49
47 minutes, 49 seconds
she need to say we don't want to have more children with lost legs. We appreciate the girl. She's a hero really. She keeps dancing, but we don't
47:57
47 minutes, 57 seconds
need children with lost limbs because of the war, right? She needed to say that.
48:02
48 minutes, 2 seconds
And she said, "Look at this girl. She lost her legs. Let's cheer up the wall. Let's militarize the society again.
48:08
48 minutes, 8 seconds
Let's give more weapons. And I'm just explaining to the people as consequence have more children with lost legs." You
48:15
48 minutes, 15 seconds
see, I mean, it's just the matter of perspective. I'm looking at this girl.
48:19
48 minutes, 19 seconds
I'm thinking, we need to do everything not to have more children like this. She looks at this girl and she says, "Hey, let's fight more with Ukrainian blood,
48:28
48 minutes, 28 seconds
with Ukrainian lost legs, with Ukrainian lost hands. This is so painful and this is so inhuman. She's the mother of seven. Cannot she imagine her own
48:37
48 minutes, 37 seconds
children like that? Would she ever cheer up for the war if her children were in such condition?
48:45
48 minutes, 45 seconds
Let's take up uh another two two subjects. Um one is um the issue of corruption in
48:55
48 minutes, 55 seconds
Ukraine and we don't have enough time and then just just with a few short statements please and uh and after that
49:04
49 minutes, 4 seconds
uh we'll take a short look again at what happened yesterday at the parliament and then we'll close. Um
49:12
49 minutes, 12 seconds
Julia just explain us the basic mechanisms as to corruption
49:20
49 minutes, 20 seconds
um concerning especially the billions of euros going to Ukraine for the purpose
49:30
49 minutes, 30 seconds
of buying arms. What happens to these billions of euros actually?
49:35
49 minutes, 35 seconds
So let me be frank here. Ukraine today in such a poor economic condition because of Zalinsk's work and because of
49:43
49 minutes, 43 seconds
what the West is doing with us that we won't be able to survive without aid.
49:48
49 minutes, 48 seconds
But providing more military aid is not going to defend the country, but it's fueling corruption inside the country
49:55
49 minutes, 55 seconds
enormously. And I was also cheering for military aid and it helped us stand in 2022 and 2023. And we needed back then
50:04
50 minutes, 4 seconds
to finish this wall. But what I see now is that in KF Vadim Zilinski's circle personally benefits much from your money
50:13
50 minutes, 13 seconds
and it's not about defense of the country. It's about attacking Russia. So we have uh drone companies that Zalinski
50:21
50 minutes, 21 seconds
promotes everywhere that he brings to the investors and at the same time uh there is a ban for other drone companies
50:29
50 minutes, 29 seconds
to promote themselves uh to make marketing abroad and uh we have anti-corruption wire taps that uh uh
50:37
50 minutes, 37 seconds
Ukrainian journalists and members of parliament read publicly already and on those wire taps um Zalinsk's long-term
50:46
50 minutes, 46 seconds
partner ner and Zilinski's appointed minister of defense are discussing uh billions that go to the company uh
50:54
50 minutes, 54 seconds
behind which the partner stands and uh this showed that you know and that partner said that economy don't matter
51:02
51 minutes, 2 seconds
anymore. So they just turned economy into you know their private benefit. Um if to to to take all the articles and
Chapter 9: Conclusion and closing remarks
51:11
51 minutes, 11 seconds
public tenders that are available online, we can see that uh since late 22 uh the company Firepoint that Zalinski
51:20
51 minutes, 20 seconds
promotes widely everywhere, widely the biggest promotion for this company got at least 7 billion euro. And behind this
51:28
51 minutes, 28 seconds
company, there are people very close to Zilinski, super close to Zilinski. So what he does every time he escalates the
51:36
51 minutes, 36 seconds
rhetoric and escalates his actions. When Russia shells he says we will protect ourselves. We will shell back. So he
51:44
51 minutes, 44 seconds
shells with firepoint. He promotes firepoint. Military by the way told me that firepoint is not of high quality and that it does not really uh uh shell.
51:54
51 minutes, 54 seconds
Well, however, however, I guess with such a money it can improve. However, then Russia shells back. Our civilians
52:01
52 minutes, 1 second
are not protected. Our skies are not closed. 93% officially 93% of shelters
52:08
52 minutes, 8 seconds
are not ready for full protectors. How is that possible on the fifth year of war? I could understand first year, I could understand second year. Fifth year
52:17
52 minutes, 17 seconds
of war. It's absolutely insane. And also if you look at Ukrainian pollings not like quantitatively but qualitatively
52:26
52 minutes, 26 seconds
you will see that despite the war the number one problem for Ukrainians is corruption because corruption is
52:33
52 minutes, 33 seconds
absolutely everywhere. I mentioned the men who are being hunted on the streets.
52:39
52 minutes, 39 seconds
So to get away from the forced mobilization, people pay 10, 15, 20,
52:46
52 minutes, 46 seconds
sometimes $30,000 a year, bro. Everything they have. And my husband, who is the former acting
52:53
52 minutes, 53 seconds
minister of economy, he counted that by only conservative counts, uh the corruption in this only sphere reaches
53:03
53 minutes, 3 seconds
$5 billion annually. It's enormous amount. The country is droning in
53:09
53 minutes, 9 seconds
poverty, is droning in in hell, is droning in shelling and corruption is blossoming. And every government in the
53:18
53 minutes, 18 seconds
world is corrupt. Every government in the world is corrupt. But there is the difference of the intention. Some governments are trying to fight that
53:26
53 minutes, 26 seconds
corruption and some governments are trying to benefit from it. I'm absolutely sure that Zalinski's government is benefiting from that corruption and endorsing it.
53:38
53 minutes, 38 seconds
To conclude, let's come back to what happened yesterday at the parliament.
53:42
53 minutes, 42 seconds
Julia, you were denied access to the parliament uh on charges that uh you will spread the Russian propaganda and
53:51
53 minutes, 51 seconds
uh disinformation. This is what the head of the cabinet of President Mets told me offensive.
53:58
53 minutes, 58 seconds
So um he couldn't present me any proofs for that. And so I told him um sir, I
54:05
54 minutes, 5 seconds
know a person who is also being charged of spreading Russian propaganda and disinformation,
54:13
54 minutes, 13 seconds
who is charged of being paid by Russia for doing this. Who is called Radio
54:20
54 minutes, 20 seconds
Moscow in the parliament? Who's called the voice of Putin in the parliament?
54:25
54 minutes, 25 seconds
And of that person I know very well that the person never got a single scent from Russia, never any instruction from
54:34
54 minutes, 34 seconds
Russia but is a purely scientific mind and that person is myself. So I told him
54:43
54 minutes, 43 seconds
the charges for Julia Menel are very much the same that are raised against me in my case. I know for sure that there will never be any proof for this. Mhm.
54:55
54 minutes, 55 seconds
So don't mind sir if I'm if I question the proofs that President Metsah claims to have.
55:03
55 minutes, 3 seconds
Mhm.
55:03
55 minutes, 3 seconds
This is for um your information um how things work. People work on second,
55:11
55 minutes, 11 seconds
third and fourthand knowledge and on headlines only. And from that even the president of the European Parliament
55:18
55 minutes, 18 seconds
makes up her mind. If you go deep into issues, if you have firsthand knowledge,
55:25
55 minutes, 25 seconds
you will come to understand that much if not most of all that which is being related also regarding you is not true.
55:35
55 minutes, 35 seconds
So um I think um what we learned the lessons we learned yesterday were quite
55:41
55 minutes, 41 seconds
telling and um actually um to to be honest most of what I told him did
55:50
55 minutes, 50 seconds
not impress him very much the legal steps that that we'll take uh complaints etc.
55:55
55 minutes, 55 seconds
They had conclusion before they saw the facts.
55:58
55 minutes, 58 seconds
Um yeah but I I'll tell you what really made him a bit uncomfortable in the end.
56:03
56 minutes, 3 seconds
told him that Julia Menel next week will have a follow-up interview with Tucker Carlson and that the scandal which took
56:11
56 minutes, 11 seconds
place yesterday at the European Parliament will be an issue in that follow-up interview and that this
56:18
56 minutes, 18 seconds
scandal will be directly related to the name of Robera Metsa and
56:25
56 minutes, 25 seconds
he showed signs of uneasiness when he heard that. So we are back at the power of the media and I would be really I
56:32
56 minutes, 32 seconds
would appreciate a lot if the scandal which we had yesterday at the parliament will be taken up by other media as well.
56:41
56 minutes, 41 seconds
I'm sure that uh uh you will do that and let's hope that other strong media actors will support us in the same way.
56:50
56 minutes, 50 seconds
I must add here that I saw strong support from a lot of conservative bloggers yesterday on Twitter and I know that the situation also reached the
56:58
56 minutes, 58 seconds
White House. I mean um it's very insulting and if people make conclusions before they see the facts this means they don't care about the facts.
57:09
57 minutes, 9 seconds
Thank you very much Julia. Thank you very much Moj for sharing your insights with me with us with the audience and
57:18
57 minutes, 18 seconds
there are many other issues that we could have taken up. Um but there are many other interviews with you also around. I think uh you are a very very
57:27
57 minutes, 27 seconds
rich source of information Julia for all those who are dissatisfied with the
57:35
57 minutes, 35 seconds
narrowminded propaganda uh that's being shed on us every day here in the mainstream media. Thank you very much and all the best for your mission.
57:45
57 minutes, 45 seconds
Don Kashon. Don Kashon.
57:50
57 minutes, 50 seconds
[music]
No comments:
Post a Comment